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Isn’t ‘20 Children and 6 Adults’ Enough?

What will it take for reasonable conversation about changes to our gun culture? Patch columnist Heather Borden Herve asks if the number of Newtown’s dead is finally reason to say, “Enough.”

I’m tired of the rhetoric, from all sides. I’m tired of the pro-gun statistic fight against the anti-gun statistic fight.

There comes a point where ‘this’ quote citation to defend constitutional originalism and ‘that’ quote citation to defend constitutional interpretation is basically like arms buildup. I’ll see your statistic and absolute proof that the Founding Fathers wanted us to keep our guns, and I’ll raise you my statistic and historically empirical evidence that they never could have imagined semi-automatic, rapid-firing reloading guns in the hands of citizens!

Quite honestly, I can’t decide if I’ve intentionally used that ‘arms buildup’ pun or not. Because I just don’t know what makes it through the rhetorical barrage anymore.

On each side, we find our numbers and quotes to defend our position and we’ll continue having the same argument unless we say, “Enough.”

Can we consider the possibility that a document that is almost 226 years old might need us to legitimately reconsider the context of 2013 when figuring out how to move forward? Can we consider that the unfathomable slaughter of 20 children and 6 adults in a school, a place once considered a safe haven, is a price too high to pay to ignore that?

Because while we may debate the certainty of what the framers of the Constitution really did want when it comes to the Second Amendment, what I think we can all agree on with absolute certainty is that the individuals who wrote it did respect thoughtful consideration, reasonable debate, and discussion without absolutist decree. If they were content with failure to change, we never would have had found ourselves independent of England’s rule to begin with.

The closest thing I’ve found to even begin to approach reasonable discussion about the gun rights debate is an article in The Atlantic by Jeffrey Goldberg — a link to which was posted in one of the 110-plus comments of a Wilton Patch article I wrote last week about a local group that met with state legislators to talk about the issue. (I’m sure the reader who made the comment and link will be surprised that I’m citing it here, as he and I stand, by and large, on opposite sides of the debate.)

The Atlantic piece asserts that there are steps which could be taken to reduce access to guns and ammunition “for the criminially minded, for the dangerously mentally ill and for the suicidal, and that measures could be taken that sensibly restrict access to weapons and ammunition that “have no reasonable civilian purpose, and their sale could be restricted without violating the Second Amendment rights of individual gun owners.” However, he concludes, these efforts would be noble but “too late” to have any meaningful impact on the rate of gun violence.

He writes that it’s too late because of the number of guns — 280 to 300 million — in private hands in this country.

While I disagree with much of what the Atlantic writer asserts — from an emotional standpoint — I have to give the writer credit for speaking to experienced people around the country on both sides’ frontlines of the gun discussion: victims of gun violence, researchers, law enforcement officers, gun enthusiasts, and lobbyists and activists.

It’s a step toward acknowledgement of what each side believes; it concedes that each side has some ground, at the very least; and it starts to establish a foundation for how pro and con advocates might be able to stop ramming each other and start listening, if not conceding, to each other, “You’ve got a point.”

I acknowledge that I tend to come at this issue from my own, emotional perspective. Even this opinion column has to take a side, by definition, if not just by its headline. But the emotional arguments of gun-control crusaders that get belittled by the gun-rights activists are just as outsized as the fear-mongering assertions made by those same extreme gun-rightists meant to stop anti-gun advocates in their tracks.

But I suspect there are plenty of people in the middle who would like to figure out a way to move toward this rational discussion about how some changes can be made.

Haven’t we had enough of the killings to try? I guess not when some people think we don’t have enough guns, as if the solution to gun violence is more guns. Or that it’s too late to do anything about it because there are too many guns out there already, so why try anything at all?

We can keep headed the wrong way down the road, where more deaths are sure to happen, and just continue going the wrong way because we’ll eventually get to where we need to go. The world is round so all we have to do is circle the globe, we’ll get there eventually. But by then, there won’t be enough of us left on either side who say, “Enough.”

The Atlantic piece ends with Goldberg writing about gun-control advocate Dan Gross of the Brady Campaign, who asked, “’In a fundamental way, isn’t this a question about the kind of society we want to live in?’ Do we want to live in one ‘in which the answer to violence is more violence, where the answer to guns is more guns?’” Goldberg adds that in a nation with 300 million guns, it’s an irrelevant question.

That’s exactly why my initial question — “Isn’t ‘20 Children and 6 Adults’ Enough?” — needs to be seen as anything but irrelevant. It’s become the most relevant question of all.

Concerned Parent & Gun Owner January 10, 2013 at 08:37 pm
No quite AZ but sometimes, the right folks do have them a just the right time:
http://nation.foxnews.com/crime/2013/01/10/15-year-old-defends-home-against-burglars-shoots-one-them-fathers-ar-15?cmpid=NL_FiredUpFoxNation Just as a reminder, earlier this week you were incredulous when someone suggested an AR was a viable home defense option. How do you think this family feels about that?
Concerned Parent & Gun Owner January 10, 2013 at 09:35 pm
AZ - CT state regulation allows any business owner to post their premises as a gun free zone. You have the right to place a highly visible placard at the door saying No Guns Please and that had to be heeded by any law abiding permittee. Should you find someone violates that posting, the police have the right to arrest him/her and confiscate their weapon. Their carry permit is then put at risk of revocation and, if revoked, they must surrender or sell their handguns.
Simple answer to our question, call 911.
Concerned Parent & Gun Owner January 10, 2013 at 09:42 pm
Then AZ, given the CDC's report this week about binge drinking among high school aged girls, I and every other parent of high school aged boys should be worried that we have hard liquor in our home that is unsecured, that my HS senior son might use our absence from our home as an opportunity to invite a girl/girls over and that that girl or those girls might be binge drinkers and that my son might have a moment of weakness and let them go at my hooch and then one might fall into an alcohol induced coma.....
Seriously, if we what-if'd our entire lives we would be left rolled up on the floor in a fetal postion wondering why our parents ever even met one another. I would never drive for fear that Buffy or Juan are texting their significant other and will broadside me while they run a red light. Stop making everyone into a potential victim! Such a world view is not healthy.
Cliff Cuming January 10, 2013 at 09:51 pm
Read it:
How the Left's Culture of Fear and Intimidation Silences Americans [Hardcover] Ben Shapiro (Author)
Andrew Blawat January 10, 2013 at 11:12 pm
AZ it sounds like you have the perception that if a gun is touched the wrong way it will discharge. It ain't so...
The father of the children was a policeman and apparently he trained the children to use firearms as they knew exactly what to do.
AZ January 10, 2013 at 11:18 pm
Yes. People leave cars unattended. People leave medicines out. People leave chemicals out. People leave appliances unattended. People take two hands off the steering wheel. People try to walk and chew bubble gum simultaneously.
No one is making anyone into a victim. Just giving some thought to a situation where children have easy access to guns.
Andrew Blawat January 10, 2013 at 11:29 pm
That is the title of the book AZ.
Eddie D January 11, 2013 at 03:57 pm
Read the story of Melinda Herman, while on the phone with 911 an intruder broke through several doors to get to an attic space she was hiding with her two young children. ONLY because she had a weapon did she and her kids survive, she shot the bastard five times and he still lived unfortunatley. She had six rounds in her pistol and fired all of them.
Andrew Blawat January 11, 2013 at 04:49 pm
Polling of comments?
Eddie D January 11, 2013 at 05:04 pm
Concerned Parent and Gun Owner...FPS Russia was shot and killed several days ago...where were you?
Concerned Parent & Gun Owner January 11, 2013 at 05:11 pm
Eddie, first, I don't watch that idiot. Second, my son told me it was the manager who was found bound and shot. Don't have time to research.
Concerned Parent & Gun Owner January 11, 2013 at 05:13 pm
AZ - dude, I alone have posted a multiple of 10 comments, how did you do your addition?
Andy - Nice meeting you last night (assuming you are that Andy). My highly biased comments on last night can be found here: http://wilton.patch.com//articles/gun-violence-talks-planned-for-today-in-wilton
Eddie D January 11, 2013 at 05:18 pm
Never seen it
Michael Duff January 11, 2013 at 06:11 pm
“Australia confiscated all firearms so as to make their society safer. Disarming the population resulted in an increase of crime: Armed robberies up by 69%, assaults with guns up 28%, gun murders up 19%, and home break-ins up 21%. Here in the United States three million people each year protect themselves from harm by having and sometimes using a firearm.”
Andrew Blawat January 11, 2013 at 06:19 pm
"Assault rifles" are fully automatic so you probably mean "assault weapons" which are semi-automatic.
Assault weapons are not very prevalent in crime so an "assault weapon ban" had nothing to do with the rate dropping. IMO the rate started dropping because CCW's license became much more widely available. The ban did nothing to eliminate weapons such as the one Newtown shooter Adam Lanza used. It simply outlawed the sale of such firearms when they had certain combinations of relatively insignificant, superficial features, such as a bayonet mount and a pistol grip, or a folding stock and a flash suppressor. But the guns themselves were still readily available. 1992 article from LA stating assault weapons are rarely used in crimes.: http://articles.latimes.com/1992-05-20/news/mn-272_1_assault-weapon
Concerned Parent & Gun Owner January 11, 2013 at 06:55 pm
Eddie - The guy who was killed was the producer and creator of FPS. That is different than the guy who was featured in the videos, a friend of the dead guy. This is being treated as a homicide:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/11/us/keith-ratliff-gun-enthusiast-of-fpsrussia-is-shot-to-death.html?_r=0 If you can't get to the NYT article, just search for Keith Ratliff FPS and you will find a plethora of articles, etc.
Concerned Parent & Gun Owner January 11, 2013 at 07:05 pm
AZ - Come on dude, you are smarter than that or so you have led me to believe. Please do not play the "correlation should mean causation" game or you will have to then agree that the dramatic fall in gun-related assaults and deaths over the past dozen years was due to the doubling of the number of firearms during the same period.
These are all multivariate issues that are due more than "if this and this then they must be cause and effect". If you want to convince me, find me the data that breaks down the firearm crime data to handguns vs rifles. If AWs are broken out even better. If not, divide the rifle data by 2 for a good sense. Also, find me the data as to whether the guns involved were lawfully held, illegal, stolen or held by disqualified people. My problem is you seem to throw around statistics rather easily and, whether you intend to our not, you conflate legal gun ownership from illegal guns, handguns and rifles, suicide and non-suicide. As has been noted previously, rifles are responsible for less than 4% of gun-related incidents, AWs less than that. As Ron noted, upwards of 80% of handgun crime involves someone who was either not permitted to have a handgun or was disqualified due to criminal record, mental incapacity, illegal citizenship, etc. The gun controls are only going to impact guns not responsible for many crimes and people rarely involved in crimes. How will that make a difference?
Concerned Parent & Gun Owner January 11, 2013 at 07:39 pm
AZ - what you say sounds logical but how does that fair in a cost benefit analysis? The reason handguns are regulated as they are is because they are highly concealable and the authorities want to ensure that only the qualified, who have been vetted and identified, are given a permit to own or carry a pistol. If is rather difficult to conceal a 36" or longer rifle or shotgun in your jeans. Yes, one could wear a trench coat but that is an extreme.
Prior to the Ntional Firearms Act of 1934, there were few restrictions on gun ownership. The Sears Catalog sold many rifles and pistols as well as the Thompson Submachinegun. With the rise of organized crime out of Prohibition, the Feds needed to find away of preventing the average criminal from carrying full auto waepons as well as sawed off shotguns (highly concealable). The NFA was passed to regulate access and is still in effect today. Unlike the regulation you note, it would not be efficient to regulate long guns in the same way. Particularly so given their highly infrequent use in criminal activity and domestic violence. Besides, the criminals would not be subject to the training and permitting process.
Andrew Blawat January 12, 2013 at 07:16 am
Don't try to put words in my mouth AZ. Crime decreased because more people were LEGALLY able to carry concealed firearms, not because of CCWs. In fact some states have allowed citizens to carry concealed firearms legally WITHOUT a CCW these days.
"Constitutional Carry" is a situation within a jurisdiction in which the carrying of concealed firearms is generally not restricted by the law. When a state or other jurisdiction has adopted Constitutional Carry, it is legal for law-abiding citizens to carry a handgun, firearm, or other weapon concealed with or without an applicable permit or license. There are currently four U.S. states that have adopted Constitutional Carry and eleven U.S. states that have pending legislation to adopt it.
Andrew Blawat January 12, 2013 at 07:18 am
As I stated before the decrease in crime correlates with the increase of more people being able to carry concealed firearms legally.
Andrew Blawat January 12, 2013 at 07:18 am
Don't try to put words in my mouth AZ. Crime decreased because more people were LEGALLY able to carry concealed firearms, not because of CCWs. In fact some states have allowed citizens to carry concealed firearms legally WITHOUT a CCW these days.
"Constitutional Carry" is a situation within a jurisdiction in which the carrying of concealed firearms is generally not restricted by the law. When a state or other jurisdiction has adopted Constitutional Carry, it is legal for law-abiding citizens to carry a handgun, firearm, or other weapon concealed with or without an applicable permit or license. There are currently four U.S. states that have adopted Constitutional Carry and eleven U.S. states that have pending legislation to adopt it.
Concerned Parent & Gun Owner January 12, 2013 at 04:08 pm
AZ - I think your comment got placed under the wrong comment.
No, Andrew was not talking about CCW being the same as constitutional carry - they are two different methods of permitting carrying of a "Concealed Carry Weapon" which is what CCW is meant to mean. Thus, there is no reason for him to clarify anything, you just need to correct your interpretation of his comment.
Concerned Parent & Gun Owner January 12, 2013 at 06:28 pm
AZ - you are looking for absolute answers to complex issues involving humans. If we were all programmable robots, the answer would be yes, but we are not. Even the strictest gun control states can not control the behavior of those who don't care about the rules. You can not compel fealty to the law for those who are off the grid. You can not force those disqualifeid from owning a firearm from getting a firearm. As in all things against the law of outside social norms, if the motivation is high enough, you can satisfy the urge. The existence of the most deviant sexual alternatives or the hunting of protected species are examples.
AZ, I respect your position & you clearly have thought about the issues. However, even if society was able to remove 95% of all firearms, those who want them will still get them. They always have and they always will. Take the UK which you are fond of mentioning. Their gang-related gun problems are the worst they have been in their history. This in a country where the citizenry has all but been disarmed. How is that not relevant to you? And the anti-gun side refuse to acknowledge the deterrent effect of some law-abiding citizens being armed. Why do almost all of the mass shooting take place in "gun free zones"? I have asked you that question at least once before but you have not addresses that clear correlation. You look for causal correlation "pins" in the metaphorical haystack yet you ignore the pin sticking out of society's finger.
Andrew Blawat January 12, 2013 at 07:47 pm
Someone is erasing their messages that I'm responding so a lot of my posts are appearing out of context. For instance in the above message I was replying to a post from AZ which was deleted but due to the deletion it appears I'm responding to Michael.
Concerned Parent & Gun Owner January 12, 2013 at 08:22 pm
Andy,
Two possibilities, either the commenter is deleted their own comments or some moderator is doing so. This thread has run its course and I am moving on. Best wishes to all. Let's make sure we make smart and informed decisions in our efforts to make a real difference in making our schools and environment safer.
Cliff Cuming January 12, 2013 at 10:13 pm
AZ often deletes his posts; often for good reason, i suppose.
Steve January 14, 2013 at 09:28 am
Clarification to Concerned Parent: If a CT carry permit is revoked, only the right to carry or transport is revoked, there is no requirement to surrender or sell your handguns. There is no CT permit to own, just to carry.
Concerned Parent & Gun Owner January 14, 2013 at 01:54 pm
AZ - Really, how ignorant are you about shooting and training? Bullseyes are for precision shooting. When training for home defense or any kind of defense against and armed assailant, you train with targets that resemble your possible target. Just as archery hunters use polystyrene deer targets, anyone training to POSSIBLY engage a human at some point, uses a realistic target. All law enforcement use a human silhouette target for that reason.
What are you going to suggest, the shooting at paper or plastic sillouette targets is a gateway to seeking the real thing?! Btw, I believe there is one state where human shaped targets are outlawed but I can't recall which one.
Cliff Cuming January 14, 2013 at 02:27 pm
Utah, surprisingly
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/320601935/m/9400079992
jim February 22, 2013 at 01:49 pm
Smarty pants the second amendment was a protection of citizens from the government- has nothing to do with hunting and the "brilliant" authors idea of questioning whether the founding fathers ever thought it should include semi automatics is way off. Of course they did. IT states that citizens should be armed with weapons on the same level of the government to protect from tyranny --complacent fool. AS to your brain fart of police only bearing arms- laughable- hows that working out in Chicago?

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Just a short thought to get the word out quickly about anything in your neighborhood.
Share something with your neighbors. Write a new post... What's up? Make an announcement, speak your mind, or sell something
Publius Redux June 18, 2013 at 08:28 pm
Liz: It should be "...Crush List that lets users...". When you type 'let's', it means 'letRead More us'.
Publius Redux June 18, 2013 at 08:26 pm
Hmm. Okay, so let me get this straight: if a legal American citizen drives drunk and kills someone,Read More this is bad according to MADD. But if an illegal alien does likewise, they (MADD) turn away and feign ignorance. I see. Yes, that makes perfect sense. Of course.
Thomas Paine June 18, 2013 at 01:29 pm
And here's more about the article:Read More http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2013/06/18/ms-magazines-my-month-with-a-gun-story-shooting-blanks/?print=1
Thomas Paine June 18, 2013 at 01:32 pm
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Thomas Paine June 18, 2013 at 01:44 pm
PR - I am out of town Thursday evening but you should attend this one:Read More http://weston-ct.patch.com/groups/announcements/p/gun-violence-panel-at-trinity-episcopal-this-thursday_087922d8
Bethlehem Lutheran Church June 17, 2013 at 02:36 pm
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Publius Redux June 17, 2013 at 03:38 pm
A simple truth: when those who call Christ as King do that which He has commanded, we realize thatRead More none of us need the government's handouts, which is just a 'slave to the lender' mindset.
Ronnie Raygun June 17, 2013 at 09:32 am
never forget Newtown...!! (RNS) Each Father’s Day, Neil Heslin and his son, Jesse Lewis, usedRead More to go to a car show. But that tradition died when 6-year-old Jesse was shot and killed at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. This Father’s Day, Heslin, who has been active with other Sandy Hook parents in pushing for gun control legislation, is giving his support to the No Father’s Day campaign. Speaking at a media teleconference to launch the campaign, Heslin said, “Jesse was my only child, my only immediate family. I don’t have a father to share Father’s Day with.” Initiated by PICO National Network’s Lifelines to Healing Campaign, the campaign asks participants to send e-cards to Congress, urging passage of legislation to create universal background checks and end gun trafficking.
Ronnie Raygun June 17, 2013 at 09:32 am
(RNS) Each Father’s Day, Neil Heslin and his son, Jesse Lewis, used to go to a car show. ButRead More that tradition died when 6-year-old Jesse was shot and killed at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. This Father’s Day, Heslin, who has been active with other Sandy Hook parents in pushing for gun control legislation, is giving his support to the No Father’s Day campaign. Speaking at a media teleconference to launch the campaign, Heslin said, “Jesse was my only child, my only immediate family. I don’t have a father to share Father’s Day with.” Initiated by PICO National Network’s Lifelines to Healing Campaign, the campaign asks participants to send e-cards to Congress, urging passage of legislation to create universal background checks and end gun trafficking.
Sanchez June 17, 2013 at 10:27 am
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Publius Redux June 14, 2013 at 11:17 pm
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