I’m tired of the rhetoric, from all sides. I’m tired of the pro-gun statistic fight against the anti-gun statistic fight.
There comes a point where ‘this’ quote citation to defend constitutional originalism and ‘that’ quote citation to defend constitutional interpretation is basically like arms buildup. I’ll see your statistic and absolute proof that the Founding Fathers wanted us to keep our guns, and I’ll raise you my statistic and historically empirical evidence that they never could have imagined semi-automatic, rapid-firing reloading guns in the hands of citizens!
Quite honestly, I can’t decide if I’ve intentionally used that ‘arms buildup’ pun or not. Because I just don’t know what makes it through the rhetorical barrage anymore.
On each side, we find our numbers and quotes to defend our position and we’ll continue having the same argument unless we say, “Enough.”
Can we consider the possibility that a document that is almost 226 years old might need us to legitimately reconsider the context of 2013 when figuring out how to move forward? Can we consider that the unfathomable slaughter of 20 children and 6 adults in a school, a place once considered a safe haven, is a price too high to pay to ignore that?
Because while we may debate the certainty of what the framers of the Constitution really did want when it comes to the Second Amendment, what I think we can all agree on with absolute certainty is that the individuals who wrote it did respect thoughtful consideration, reasonable debate, and discussion without absolutist decree. If they were content with failure to change, we never would have had found ourselves independent of England’s rule to begin with.
The closest thing I’ve found to even begin to approach reasonable discussion about the gun rights debate is an article in The Atlantic by Jeffrey Goldberg — a link to which was posted in one of the 110-plus comments of a Wilton Patch article I wrote last week about a local group that met with state legislators to talk about the issue. (I’m sure the reader who made the comment and link will be surprised that I’m citing it here, as he and I stand, by and large, on opposite sides of the debate.)
The Atlantic piece asserts that there are steps which could be taken to reduce access to guns and ammunition “for the criminially minded, for the dangerously mentally ill and for the suicidal, and that measures could be taken that sensibly restrict access to weapons and ammunition that “have no reasonable civilian purpose, and their sale could be restricted without violating the Second Amendment rights of individual gun owners.” However, he concludes, these efforts would be noble but “too late” to have any meaningful impact on the rate of gun violence.
He writes that it’s too late because of the number of guns — 280 to 300 million — in private hands in this country.
While I disagree with much of what the Atlantic writer asserts — from an emotional standpoint — I have to give the writer credit for speaking to experienced people around the country on both sides’ frontlines of the gun discussion: victims of gun violence, researchers, law enforcement officers, gun enthusiasts, and lobbyists and activists.
It’s a step toward acknowledgement of what each side believes; it concedes that each side has some ground, at the very least; and it starts to establish a foundation for how pro and con advocates might be able to stop ramming each other and start listening, if not conceding, to each other, “You’ve got a point.”
I acknowledge that I tend to come at this issue from my own, emotional perspective. Even this opinion column has to take a side, by definition, if not just by its headline. But the emotional arguments of gun-control crusaders that get belittled by the gun-rights activists are just as outsized as the fear-mongering assertions made by those same extreme gun-rightists meant to stop anti-gun advocates in their tracks.
But I suspect there are plenty of people in the middle who would like to figure out a way to move toward this rational discussion about how some changes can be made.
Haven’t we had enough of the killings to try? I guess not when some people think we don’t have enough guns, as if the solution to gun violence is more guns. Or that it’s too late to do anything about it because there are too many guns out there already, so why try anything at all?
We can keep headed the wrong way down the road, where more deaths are sure to happen, and just continue going the wrong way because we’ll eventually get to where we need to go. The world is round so all we have to do is circle the globe, we’ll get there eventually. But by then, there won’t be enough of us left on either side who say, “Enough.”
The Atlantic piece ends with Goldberg writing about gun-control advocate Dan Gross of the Brady Campaign, who asked, “’In a fundamental way, isn’t this a question about the kind of society we want to live in?’ Do we want to live in one ‘in which the answer to violence is more violence, where the answer to guns is more guns?’” Goldberg adds that in a nation with 300 million guns, it’s an irrelevant question.
That’s exactly why my initial question — “Isn’t ‘20 Children and 6 Adults’ Enough?” — needs to be seen as anything but irrelevant. It’s become the most relevant question of all.
http://nation.foxnews.com/crime/2013/01/10/15-year-old-defends-home-against-burglars-shoots-one-them-fathers-ar-15?cmpid=NL_FiredUpFoxNation Just as a reminder, earlier this week you were incredulous when someone suggested an AR was a viable home defense option. How do you think this family feels about that?
Simple answer to our question, call 911.
Seriously, if we what-if'd our entire lives we would be left rolled up on the floor in a fetal postion wondering why our parents ever even met one another. I would never drive for fear that Buffy or Juan are texting their significant other and will broadside me while they run a red light. Stop making everyone into a potential victim! Such a world view is not healthy.
How the Left's Culture of Fear and Intimidation Silences Americans [Hardcover] Ben Shapiro (Author)
The father of the children was a policeman and apparently he trained the children to use firearms as they knew exactly what to do.
No one is making anyone into a victim. Just giving some thought to a situation where children have easy access to guns.
Andy - Nice meeting you last night (assuming you are that Andy). My highly biased comments on last night can be found here: http://wilton.patch.com//articles/gun-violence-talks-planned-for-today-in-wilton
Assault weapons are not very prevalent in crime so an "assault weapon ban" had nothing to do with the rate dropping. IMO the rate started dropping because CCW's license became much more widely available. The ban did nothing to eliminate weapons such as the one Newtown shooter Adam Lanza used. It simply outlawed the sale of such firearms when they had certain combinations of relatively insignificant, superficial features, such as a bayonet mount and a pistol grip, or a folding stock and a flash suppressor. But the guns themselves were still readily available. 1992 article from LA stating assault weapons are rarely used in crimes.: http://articles.latimes.com/1992-05-20/news/mn-272_1_assault-weapon
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/11/us/keith-ratliff-gun-enthusiast-of-fpsrussia-is-shot-to-death.html?_r=0 If you can't get to the NYT article, just search for Keith Ratliff FPS and you will find a plethora of articles, etc.
These are all multivariate issues that are due more than "if this and this then they must be cause and effect". If you want to convince me, find me the data that breaks down the firearm crime data to handguns vs rifles. If AWs are broken out even better. If not, divide the rifle data by 2 for a good sense. Also, find me the data as to whether the guns involved were lawfully held, illegal, stolen or held by disqualified people. My problem is you seem to throw around statistics rather easily and, whether you intend to our not, you conflate legal gun ownership from illegal guns, handguns and rifles, suicide and non-suicide. As has been noted previously, rifles are responsible for less than 4% of gun-related incidents, AWs less than that. As Ron noted, upwards of 80% of handgun crime involves someone who was either not permitted to have a handgun or was disqualified due to criminal record, mental incapacity, illegal citizenship, etc. The gun controls are only going to impact guns not responsible for many crimes and people rarely involved in crimes. How will that make a difference?
Prior to the Ntional Firearms Act of 1934, there were few restrictions on gun ownership. The Sears Catalog sold many rifles and pistols as well as the Thompson Submachinegun. With the rise of organized crime out of Prohibition, the Feds needed to find away of preventing the average criminal from carrying full auto waepons as well as sawed off shotguns (highly concealable). The NFA was passed to regulate access and is still in effect today. Unlike the regulation you note, it would not be efficient to regulate long guns in the same way. Particularly so given their highly infrequent use in criminal activity and domestic violence. Besides, the criminals would not be subject to the training and permitting process.
"Constitutional Carry" is a situation within a jurisdiction in which the carrying of concealed firearms is generally not restricted by the law. When a state or other jurisdiction has adopted Constitutional Carry, it is legal for law-abiding citizens to carry a handgun, firearm, or other weapon concealed with or without an applicable permit or license. There are currently four U.S. states that have adopted Constitutional Carry and eleven U.S. states that have pending legislation to adopt it.
"Constitutional Carry" is a situation within a jurisdiction in which the carrying of concealed firearms is generally not restricted by the law. When a state or other jurisdiction has adopted Constitutional Carry, it is legal for law-abiding citizens to carry a handgun, firearm, or other weapon concealed with or without an applicable permit or license. There are currently four U.S. states that have adopted Constitutional Carry and eleven U.S. states that have pending legislation to adopt it.
No, Andrew was not talking about CCW being the same as constitutional carry - they are two different methods of permitting carrying of a "Concealed Carry Weapon" which is what CCW is meant to mean. Thus, there is no reason for him to clarify anything, you just need to correct your interpretation of his comment.
AZ, I respect your position & you clearly have thought about the issues. However, even if society was able to remove 95% of all firearms, those who want them will still get them. They always have and they always will. Take the UK which you are fond of mentioning. Their gang-related gun problems are the worst they have been in their history. This in a country where the citizenry has all but been disarmed. How is that not relevant to you? And the anti-gun side refuse to acknowledge the deterrent effect of some law-abiding citizens being armed. Why do almost all of the mass shooting take place in "gun free zones"? I have asked you that question at least once before but you have not addresses that clear correlation. You look for causal correlation "pins" in the metaphorical haystack yet you ignore the pin sticking out of society's finger.
Two possibilities, either the commenter is deleted their own comments or some moderator is doing so. This thread has run its course and I am moving on. Best wishes to all. Let's make sure we make smart and informed decisions in our efforts to make a real difference in making our schools and environment safer.
What are you going to suggest, the shooting at paper or plastic sillouette targets is a gateway to seeking the real thing?! Btw, I believe there is one state where human shaped targets are outlawed but I can't recall which one.
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/320601935/m/9400079992